Skyrim & Mod Organizer not working

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  • #170070
    Ralf
    Keymaster

    If you want to disable auto settings, please do it per game in the vorpX menu. Do not use the global override in the config app for anything else than trouble shooting.

    Disabling auto settings globally can and will screw up some games completely and even if it doesn’t, will usually do a lot more harm than good. If you disable it globally, you will encounter severe problems with some games and miss a lot of useful tweaks in most others. So if there is one game where you think it’s better to turn auto settings off for some reason, do it only for that game in the vorpX ingame menu.

    #170072
    prinyo
    Participant

    Yes, that’s what I meant – disable it to see if it will run. Not keep it disabled.
    He can’t disable “per game” in the in-game menu if the game doesn’t start.

    Since the MO integration is another black box debugging it for the user is more or less fire shots in the dark and see what happens. How does VorpX know if the game is started via MO? How does it know which profile is active? Those are the kind of questions the user needs to know the answer to in order to troubleshoot their setup. I know this kind of answers for all the tools and apps I use – I might not know how they work, but I know what they do and how they are supposed to interact with each-other and work together. The problem with the latest VorpX update is that not only it takes away too much of the user’s control, but also the possibility to have a basic understanding of what it is doing. I understand it is important to make it plug and play and offer a painless setup for the novice users but there should be a balance.

    About the “Skyrim pro’s”. It is a 6 year old game. Most of the people who still play it do it because they have created their own perfect modded setup that offers them something that no other game does. So most of the people playing it today have (or are trying to have) their specific setups – enabled by their understanding about how the tools and mods work together and how to debug and troubleshoot. A “black box” type of tool added to the mix is a serious problem.

    As I said – it is a 6 years old game. The people who still play it are mostly “pro’s” – tweakers. The more people buy VR sets and VorpX the more serious the problem with the inability to troubleshoot VorpX problems because of lack of basic information will get.
    For the past weeks the response to any suggestions about debugging has been “don’t change the defaults or bad things will happen”. This will simply not work with the Skyrim crowd that is, 6 years after the game’s release, all about tweaking and modding. At some point there needs to be some basic information about the way VorpX works and integrates with the game and the other tools. Or an “advanced mode” where it will work exactly it did before the update – when everything was easy to understand, predict and troubleshoot.

    #170073
    Ralf
    Keymaster

    It is impossible to account for all the different ways you guys configure your Skyrim installations. So in case of issues always check an unmodified install of the game first.

    What vorpX does in regard to MO is the bare minimum of ini edits in MOs custom Skyrim ini files that prevent severe graphical glitches likes shadows working not correctly. So actually this is the perfect example of a case where the only correct and useful advice can be to not mess with auto settings. It’s very likely that you will do more harm than good by disabling them.

    In other games even worse things will happen, and even if not, you will miss most useful tweaks like disabling effects that look bad VR and so on. So once again: do not mess with auto settings unless you have reason to do so.

    Change can be hard, I understand that, but this is change for the better. A lot better.

    If you want the prior vorpX, where you had to do everything yourself, you can get that by disabling auto settings, but please don’t report any issues here that you encounter in that case. Thanks.

    #170074
    prinyo
    Participant

    The reason that so many different Skyrim setups exist and work is because people have the basic information required to build and troubleshoot them. For example I know how MO fits with LOOT, fits with the game, fits with all other tools and mods I use. Until a month ago I used to know how VorpX fits in all this. At first it seemed there is a way to make it behave as before, now it is clear there is no.
    People who play Skyrim (and even Oldrim) in 2018 are all “tweakers”, for us a change that introduces so many unknowns and black box elements is not “for better”.
    Which MO ini is it trying to use? Why is it using so low resolution for my system? The reply that “it knows best” doesn’t really help.
    I’m not trying to be confrontational, there is a way to make both the casual players and the Skyrim players (most of them tweakers) happy.

    The way things stand now there is practically no support for Skyrim problems. The official position is (as before) “can not account for all different setups” – which is understandable, but now a community support is also impossible, as there is a lot of vital basic information missing.

    #170075
    Ralf
    Keymaster

    As I said, above and in multiple answers to you before: if you want the prior vorpX, where you had to do everything yourself, you can get that by disabling auto settings. Please just don’t report any issues here that you encounter in that case. Thanks.

    It would also be great if you wouldn’t advise others to disable auto settings unless you are 100% sure that this feature actually causes a specific issue. Advice to disable auto settings in the vast majority of cases is bad advice.

    #170076
    prinyo
    Participant

    I advised disabling all the auto settings in order to debug a problem where the game won’t start at all – so no access to the per game option. How was that wrong and what other alternative is there? I can be wrong, of course, but I still do not understand what was wrong in the idea.

    It is obvious that disabling the auto settings doesn’t make VorpX function as before as it will do quite a lot of things regardless.

    Anyway, we are going in circles and I’m not really interested in arguing. I have tried to explain my point of view with arguments and examples. This is what I believe giving meaningful and helpful feedback is about. I’m not saying how it should be, I’m explaining what is better for me and the others like me. Seems that any advice given by users on the forum in the past weeks is pronounced “bad” and it is obvious community support is no longer welcome. So I’ll stop trying to help, no problems.

    #170077
    Ralf
    Keymaster

    I think I said everything that is to say to say in this regard. You are totally free to get your old vorpX experience back if you want, this option is actually there because I anticipated discussions like this one. With auto settings disabled vorpX doesn’t do anything that it didn’t do before.

    But since, like you pointed out yourself, you do not exactly know what the auto settings do, please do not advise others to disable them unless you are 100% sure that they cause an issue. If you are sure, I’m of course grateful for any such hints.

    However, to get back on topic, if you re-read my answer above where I explained what vorpX does in case of MO, you will notice that in regard to MO disabling auto settings is a perfect example of bad advice.

    #170080
    prinyo
    Participant

    When did I tell him to permanently disable the auto setting?
    How can he disable the setting per game if the game doesn’t start so this menu is not accessible?

    Your response to my attempt to help is not based on what I’m actually saying. It is “bad advice” the same way any other user’s suggestion in the past weeks is “bad advice”. Repeating one and the same thing about what is good and what is bad without any technical useful information simply means there is no more customer support for Skyrim – a game where most of the players have custom setups. If you have a problem then it is your own fault – don’t try to debug it, don’t ask for help, don’t try to help others. Anything you can try is “bad”, the only “good” is whatever the black box decides to do, even if it doesn’t exactly work.
    So I don’t see how my advice was bad, all I see is an attempt to avoid giving any specific technical information to help users debug their problems. It is here in this thread, the same yesterday with my problems with the resolution and with any other attempt of an user to ask a specific question to help them troubleshoot.

    The thing is – Skyrim is a very popular game played by lot’s of people who want to tweak it a lot, so at some point helpful hints and info will need to be given.

    This is new for the forums. Until recently people discussing specific SKyrim problems were left alone to discuss and exchange ideas. Now after every such post there is an official rebuttal that repeats one and the same thing regardless of what the user was actually saying. That’s why I said that if the community support is no longer welcomed here then no problems, we’ll stop trying to help.

    #170083
    Ralf
    Keymaster

    That is simply not true and I think you know that quite well. Recommending to disable auto settings is the only thing that I specificallly advice against whenever I read that. I’m doing that because In contrast to you I know exactly what issues disabling auto settings can cause.

    As said above, if you discover any specific issues caused by this feature, you’re more than welcome to report them here, so they can be addressed. In other cases please simply believe me when I say that disabling auto settings usually will do a lot more harm than good.

    Nothing has been taken away from you, you can tweak as much as you like exactly like you always could. Please just don’t make other peoples’ lifes (including mine) harder by recommending something that in 99% of cases is the opposite of good advice. Thanks.

    #170084
    prinyo
    Participant

    OK, I give up.

    #170085
    Ralf
    Keymaster

    Maybe ask yourself one question: how much more can one listen to a community than someone who implemets a feature requested by you personally – and only you – three days later, like recently the notifications.

    In this case however I beg you to just trust me. There would be zero reason to discuss this with you at length if I didn’t think that you are specifically not helping anyone by giving the advice you gave. Thanks again for your understanding.

    #170086
    prinyo
    Participant

    I think we really have different understanding about the advice I gave. I ask this in every post on this page:

    When did I tell him to permanently disable the auto setting?
    How can he disable the setting per game if the game doesn’t start so this menu is not accessible?

    #170087
    prinyo
    Participant

    Cool! The DirectVR enabled/disabled messages are gone. Thanks!
    Is there a setting for the “DirectVR supported. Partially cached…” that is the one that is making it impossible to select a save at the start by been shown on top of the saves list?

    #170089
    Ralf
    Keymaster

    “… Or check to never change game settings in VorpX Config and see if it runs this way …”

    People with less knowledge than you will check that checkbox, forget about it and wonder why half the games they start don’t work as they are supposed to afterwards.

    Please be very careful to recommend that at all to anyone and if you think it really makes sense in a specific case, please add in the very same sentence that usually that is a very bad idea and should only be done for testing purposes and nothing else.

    The number one complaint about vorpX – rightfully – always has been the amount of tweaking required. You like that, most others don’t. By carelessly recommending to disable the very feature that finally addresses this issue, you cause much more problems than you could ever solve with your advice.

    That clearly is not your intention, I know that, but even the best intentions not always result in a good outcome.

    Thanks again, again and again for your understanding. Hope that clarifies this. We both have probably more fun things to do on a Sunday than having this discussion.

    #170091
    prinyo
    Participant

    I believe it is all about balance. Blocking the possibility of the advanced users to search help and refusing to give relevant technical information and hints will only result in them searching for help elsewhere and/or will give the impression that things are broken beyond repair. And none of those are a good thing.

    Seems to me the best option is to create a new forum “Advanced use” or “Interoperability issues” (sounds both scary and appropriate enough) and in the description to make it clear that it is about users discussing the use of VorpX with 3rd party tools and content – modding tools and so on. So any discussion about using MO, NMM, ENB, mod specific problems will go there.
    Otherwise I do believe the current attempt to sacrifice the advanced users in the name of the casual users will only backfire.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 44 total)
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