Search Results for 'The Thing'

[dimensionaldude]

zahncisten wrote:

Dragon Age Origins has perfect depth (orzammar is incredible for understanding the perception. It looks awesome). I play all games in Cinema mode due to a balance condition (I’m dizzy all the time, so I need stationary things to keep steady, and cinema is perfect for that). I just finished Alien Isolation, that was incredible, and the depth was great. I’ve tooled around with Metro 2033 (not Redux) and the depth is spot-on. Skyrim is always a solid. Oh, and Mass Effect 3 (I haven’t played 1 or 2 with VorpX). The G3D is stunning. I’ve used VorpX for a few months now, and I love it. I use it every day (I’m not kidding), it really is great. If you think you are seeing things flat and you think it may be your HMD, definitely try newer hardware. I’d do that before I started thinking VorpX needed to be way different for my peculiar use-case.

I have Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect 3, and Metro 2033. I’ll test those in the next couple days when I get a chance. I’d like to ask more specifics if you don’t mind:

-What screen distance offset setting do you use?
-What aspect ratio do you use (4:3 / 16:9, etc.)?
-Any other tweaks you recommend for them, like custom FOV, etc?
-If you don’t mind sometime, pick a game you think has good depth, and temporarily decrease the screen distance value and look at something close to you. Does the depth seem lower at all?

I’ll assume you play with a screen depth of 3.0 or less for all them.

And hey, you don’t need to convince me VorpX is great software. It’s the entire basis of me wanting to upgrade my VR set. I just want to get this one aspect ironed out and I’m halfway to heaven.

[zahncisten]

Dragon Age Origins has perfect depth (orzammar is incredible for understanding the perception. It looks awesome). I play all games in Cinema mode due to a balance condition (I’m dizzy all the time, so I need stationary things to keep steady, and cinema is perfect for that). I just finished Alien Isolation, that was incredible, and the depth was great. I’ve tooled around with Metro 2033 (not Redux) and the depth is spot-on. Skyrim is always a solid. Oh, and Mass Effect 3 (I haven’t played 1 or 2 with VorpX). The G3D is stunning. I’ve used VorpX for a few months now, and I love it. I use it every day (I’m not kidding), it really is great. If you think you are seeing things flat and you think it may be your HMD, definitely try newer hardware. I’d do that before I started thinking VorpX needed to be way different for my peculiar use-case.

[dimensionaldude]

zahncisten wrote:

I realize that this is a technical discussion, but it seems to revolves around what appears to be preference on the part of those who want greater strength. Maybe my HMD is different, but after I get above 3.0 on strength, the visual representation is impossible. I trust Ralf implicity on VorpX, and I think you, Ralf, make excellent decisions regarding VorpX. Carry on!

It’s possible because I’m on the DK2, that’s causing such a huge divide on the perception. That would be great if that’s all it is, since I was planning to upgrade if I can get good VorpX values. I totally understand not tuning VorpX for something that old, though I don’t know if that’s the main issue or not or if we just perceive the world differently or what. For what it’s worth, I saw Avatar in the theater in 3D and thought it was definitely too shallow also compared to 3D shorts I had seen in a theme park before.

Do you have any examples of games you think have great depth in VorpX in Cinema mode?

[Ralf]

I understand perfectly, and having done several hundred game profiles I can assure you that the available range is far larger than necessary to achieve realistic depth/scale (remember: basically the same thing). Maybe double check your FOV values. For a cinema screen exactly filling your view vertically, the ideal FOV values posted above apply 1:1.

[RJK_]

Need some help Guys,

Have the pro connected but when starting vorpX i get steamVR error 202 , something like “Compositor must be full screen” and HMD is displaying red and blue screens only.

any solution ?

[Ralf]

Realistic scale and realistic depth are the same thing. Apparently I’m unable to communicate that in an understandable way. Depth and scale are one side of the same medal. There is no way to change one separately from the other.

Try to imagine depth as scale in the direction you are looking, maybe that helps.

Lower ‘3D-Strength’ (eye separation) -> world appears to be bigger.
Higher ‘3D-Strength’ (eye separation) -> world appears to be smaller.

That’s not some strange behaviour of vorpX, that is how stereo vision works. With vorpX just as in reality. The strength of the 3D effect (= distance between the ‘eyes’) directly determines how big or small you perceive the world. Both are linked, they are not two separate things.

If the world appears to be tiny after your FOV tweaks, you have to lower the eye separation to get a realistic depth/scale, not raise it.

[Stryker_66]

I’ll make this my last response to this post as well. I’ll concede that I have no idea what it would take for a developer to implement such an option. If this required a fork lift change or required a massive amount of time to implement, this is understandable. Doesn’t change the fact the 3D strength is still too weak. Most PC games were never designed for VR anyway. VR in general is still in infancy. Many developers are creating new ways to play in VR and it is one massive experimentation….lol.

Some of the best VR experiences are coming from mods. Alien Isolation VR, Doom 3 Fully Possessed VR, Penumbra VR are amazing. The fact these were never originally designed for VR is ironic. Creativity is what makes PC gaming so dam fun. Hellblade VR with their experimentation “table top” mode is an incredible way to play a third person game in a headset.

Anyway, if that is what it is, you can’t fight city hall….lol. Nothing wrong with constructive feedback.

[dimensionaldude]

I feel like we keep miscommunicating, so I’ll just keep it short as possible:

-Increasing the 3D depth didn’t make things look tiny to me. Increasing the FOV did, quite dramatically.

-Are there any games you would suggest for VorpX that have IDEAL depth levels already so that 5.0+ would be totally unnecessary?

[Ralf]

If the max. G3D separation is not enough for your taste, Z3D certainly will not. It’s main advantage is that it’s twice as fast, the price for that is less natural stereo 3D. Especially in VR framerate can be more important than perfect S3D for a comfortable experience.

RE dollhose: If everything looks tiny, you have to reduce the 3D-Strength not raise it even further. Trust me, I believe I know a few things about that kind of stuff. That is just how stereo vision works, in VR as well as in reality. If your eyes would be 30cm apart in reality, the real world also would look tiny. 3D-strength and perceived scale are two sides of the same medal.

[dimensionaldude]

@Ralf No, that’s exactly what I mean.

I played SiN Episodes: Emergence recently, and I noticed that at the game’s default FOV (in Cinema mode), things looked about right at 5.0 but everything was a little too flat. If I increased the FOV, the depth started looking about right, but then everything was a little too tiny, like a doll, exactly as you’re describing.

I noticed the same effect in Assassin’s Creed Unity. I probably need to test more games since my memory is blurry on others. If there are any games you would suggest as a reference (preferably older ones, I don’t own many brand new games) that you think look perfect at less than 5.0 depth in cinema mode, I’d be very interested to know.

It could be I’m completely wrong on all this, but in my experience, it was the FOV increasing the dollhouse look, not the depth.

EDIT: I found a screenshot demonstrating the “dollhouse shrinkage” effect you get from increasing the FOV:

My understanding was the depth values were a separate value that didn’t cause that effect, just the relative distance the objects were from the camera.

@Stryker_66
I’m kind of surprised the Z buffer mode is offered at all. In everything I’ve tested it on, the effect was so weak it just wasn’t even worth running in my opinion. Have there been any games Z buffer mode does a great job with depth on?

[Ralf]

Maybe what you mean by dollhouse effect is not what I mean. For me that word means the world appearing to be far smaller than it normally would. If that is also your definition, in order to avoid the dollhouse effect you have to reduce the 3D-Strength not raise it. The exaggerated stereo separation (i.e. disance between the virtual ‘cameras’) is the reason for the dollhouse effect.

If you mean something else, just ignore this post.

[dimensionaldude]

I said I wouldn’t debate it more (I swear, I’m not trying to make this an argument), so feel free to not respond further, but two comments you made suggest a misunderstanding for what I’m asking, so I just wanted to clarify:

1. I wasn’t proposing making values above 5.0 accessible to the average user if that was a problem for you. I don’t understand the problem with having a commandline option like vorpx.exe -extremedepth being the only way to unlock the option. The typical user will never do that, and the vocal minority like ourselves would be in heaven.

2. The dollhouse effect is exactly what I’m trying to AVOID. I found that by increasing the FOV more in the games, it led to proper depth, but then everything was looking too tiny, exactly the dollhouse effect you’re describing. You may not believe me, but I WANT realistic scale and depth, I found the current settings didn’t accomplish that in the games I tested. My guess is 5.0 is more than enough in some games, not enough in others.

I’m certain you still disagree with me, I just wanted to clarify what my position was. In any event, thank you for the response, even if it’s a hard one.

[Ralf]

I have to consider more than things than just the wishes of a (sorry) very small minority of users who might want to play with a even more extreme “doll house” effect than the one already possible. Stereo disconnects lead to severe discomfort und thus the current max of 5.0 was carefully chosen. That is all I can say. Sorry again.

I understand that you want “more 3D”, whether that might be realistic or not. Please try to understand in return the decision I tried to explain in detail above. It has nothing to do with beliefs or opinions It’s purely based on the fact that beyond the current max the separation gets so high for nearby objects that it actually breaks the stereo 3D effect, far beyond a point already that is comfortable for most people.

[dimensionaldude]

@Ralf Well, you’re making it clear you’re not going to budge on this. All I can say this is immensely disappointing. I’ve been using stereoscopic 3D ever since the Elsa Revelator and it’s been one of the most wondrous experiences I’ve had. Even Nvidia’s buyout of Elsa I thought toned down the settings in many games to make them worse than the original experiences I’ve had. VorpX has been the ONLY software to come close to those fantastic experiences I’ve had in the past.

I’ve been building up a lot of hopes and plans as to all the games I can play and have been looking into new VR devices specifically for VorpX, assuming I would be tune it to get it just right for as many games as possible. To discover that I’m being blocked from being able to have those fantastic experiences again for reasons I honestly don’t understand is frustrating to say the least. I admit, I’m more passionate about this stuff than is probably healthy, I just want you to understand where I’m coming from.

I’m not exaggerating when I say I would willing to pay $300 or possibly more to have an OPTION to increase the depth more, even if it was something buried away in a special commandline option inaccessible by average users.

If you’re so resolved in your belief on the matter to refute customer feedback, solutions to satisfy both parties, and literally more money for you, then I guess I can’t do anything to convince you otherwise. I won’t debate it anymore with you, since I swear I’m not trying to cause you more work or problems, just know you’re really crushing my hopes for VR with this.

[dimensionaldude]

Ralf wrote:

The goal of VR typically is to recreate scale and 3D in a natural way. Base profile parameters are usually defined so that this is the case at or close to the 1.0 you see in the vorpX menu. Originally the user definable max. was 2.0 and was later changed to 5.0 due to similar requests in the past. You probably would like another answer, and I can understand that, but that is where it will stay. Beyond that you get serious convergence issues with objects nearby. Untrained people will reach that point long before 5.0.

For reference: a 3D-Strength of 5.0 usually means being a giant with eyes 30cm apart, or in other words a 1.8m NPC appears only 0.36m high. That should be “enough 3D” even for most who aren’t after realism.

BTW: Ideally a VR app should have no user definable 3D-strength setting at all, no VR game has something like that. In reality the amount of depth perceived is defined by the distance between your eyes and it should be the same way in VR. The only reason this setting was made available originally is that the scale of games not made for VR isn’t always 100% clear and consistent.

I’d like to offer a respectful rebuttal to the points you’re making:

-You refer to other users having convergence issues that you don’t want to ruin their experience for. This is a fair point, however is there a hack-y solution advanced users who sincerely care about this could use? An additional .ini setting, registry key, something like that? Then advanced users could be happy and newcomers would have the option normally hidden from them so as not to cause problems. That would be an “everybody wins” solution as I see it.

-As far what’s the correct scale or not, you can tell me all day what’s right and wrong, however, I’m afraid I’m going by my own “lying eyes”. I’m not crunching the math on what the correct setting SHOULD be, I just know if I see a crate right in front of me and it seems obviously too flat and not like reality, then I need more depth. That’s literally all the consideration I’m giving to this. If I’m playing, and the entire time I’m thinking “this is still too flat”, I can’t shake that feeling and it significantly detracts from the experience for me.

-I agree completely that an ideal VR app should have no defined strength, because they’re tailored for a specific experience and should look one way. VorpX, by definition is about getting games running that are NOT designed for VR. The amount of depth needed for one game varies greatly from others. Additionally, Cinema mode halfway across the virtual room, is a different experience than Immersive mode, close up. There are a lot of variables involved, so what’s perfectly tailored for one method can be lacking in another.

In short, I’m practically begging you to reconsider. I’m in “Help Me Ralf, you’re my only hope” mode here.