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  • #207530
    Ralf
    Keymaster

    I see. I’m 99% certain that what you mean is an unavoidable artifact of the depth buffer 3D method (Z3D), where the image is only rendered once (instead of once for each eye) and then the 3D effect is created afterwards based on the game’s depth buffer. This method introduces some shimmering around objects closer to the camera. Unfortunately F1 2021 does not have a DX11 renderer anymore and vorpX at this point does not support “true” Geometry 3D for DX12 yet. The upshot of the Z3D method is that it’s practically twice as fast.

    If you find the artifacts extremely distracting, try to reduce the 3D-Strength. Another option would be to switch to a different camera position. With the ‘above-helmet-camera’ there isn’t anything directly in front of you that causes annoying artifacts. And last but not least you could revert to F1 2020, which has a DX11 renderer and a Geometry 3D vorpX profile.

    rich0550
    Participant

    Thanks for support, pc is 9700K, win10

    It either boots with Vorpx splash or not at all it never says errors or mentions hook helper.

    Also noticed that only works with reverb not oculus quest 2 tried that one many times with and without Steam VR

    Is open XMR to be enabled default for current headset, i see that message come up in headset options when plugging in could this be an issue?

    #207388
    daijoa
    Participant

    PS4 trailer : https://youtu.be/wnvGDtK5jjY

    I just picked up this game on fanatical bundle $1!(Now it expired. But not rare discounts these days) I didn’t know about the musician and didn’t have much expectations . But music and graphics are amazing also the play is fun.

    I checked what game engine is and it is Unity 4. I made a profile based on Ori and the Blind Forest DE.

    Wow, PERFECT. Nice G3D effects, smooth performance(You should set ‘exclusive full screen’ graphic option for performance). Cut scenes that sometimes pop up when you clear the stage is only be showed on the left lense but the cut scene is just cut scene and you can skip it so well playable. I’m playing on 3080ti with reverb g2, 4k resolution.

    I strongly recommend. Even on flat play, this is cool. All review rate is Overwhelmingly Positive.

    #207225

    In reply to: Final Fantasy XIV

    domoariroboto
    Participant

    @ Aaroncls Given my limited capabilities, I was unable to find a better solution for dynamic lights other than to provide the option to disable them. Some environments are less offensive than others, so you can toggle between vorpX Shadow Treatment “turn OFF” and “No S3D” to see which suits the situation best. One trick that can help mitigate the lack of dynamic light is to boost the gamma and saturation values to make the scene appear more vibrantly lit.

    @ Reevethelion Due to the very low field of view restrictions of the camera, FullVR mode isn’t really suitable in this game unfortunately. You can try the FullVR mode with image zoom moved out to around 0.40 to get an idea of where it needs to be, but the screen edges will be very noticeable.

    In FF14 you need to hold down the right mouse button to rotate the camera. So if you want to control the camera with your head tracking, you’ll need to hold down right mouse button while you look around.

    You can download FFXIV Quick launcher and then Dalamud’s Plugin. You will need those two things, then the plugin Cammy to get a wider FOV. I use it and it’s awesome! I play in first person mostly. What’s also great is that if you have any problem with the Cammy plugin like I did you can post on Github the issue on the cammy page and the creator will get back to you quickly.

    #207178
    RJK_
    Participant

    Ralf is constantly providing us with new gifts and features over and over FOR FREE.

    How about we make him a little present in return by powereing up the inofficial gamelist up to 1000 ? Lets make a 1000 happen in 2021 !

    The list is beeing visited daily by hundrets of people, how nice would VorpX “inofficially supports more then 1000 games” sound like spread across reddit,steam and all the other places? BTW: I am pretty much shure that we could hit the 1000 within days, the list already counts 949 and the cloud is packed with new profiles from unknown authors.

    Its so easy, just submit an SBS Screenshot of the game that you have fixed to the list (right top corner, “Make submission”) http://rjkole.com/gamestuff/engines/
    Little sidenote: Each new entry also makes the engine checker better, dont forget !

    Litte Backgound why i cant perform all that on my own:
    I am very well aware that there a way more profiles in the cloud then on the inofficial list and i kept beeing asked why i wouldnt add them.The answer is easy, 1- i own thousands of games , but its impossible for me to own every game. 2- I am busy enough with my own profile requests and i simply dont have the time to manually verify hundrets of profiles just to see if one is 3D or not (too many are NOT!). 3- We want a clean list, so adding games without proof wouldnt make sense. Too many profiles are not even 3D.

    The easiest way is simply to take a SBS Screenshot and submit it to the list.
    Here is a little how to: (easiest and fastest way)
    1- Switch VorpX over to “Generic Display”, start game and Press “Print”
    2- Click Windows->Start, enter: Mspaint
    3- When Mspaint is open press STRG+V
    4- Save SBS Image as .jpg
    5- Submit picture

    Please remember: Its not only me benefitting from the List, its mainly YOU benefitting from it!

    #207008
    kia75
    Participant

    Hi,

    I own Vive Pro 2 and it is really good headset. No other headset feels that real with price less then 3k so far.

    But.

    But it does not work properly with vorpx! Image looks blurry with z-buffer mods, geometry mod not working.

    Just want to echo this. I own a Vive Pro 2, love it, it’s great for most of my games! I’ve never been able to get Vorp-x to work.

    #206994
    grumbel45
    Participant

    I experimented with 3D a lot in the past X years. One day fooling around with an empty toilet paper roll i noticed that the brain is able to constuct a 3D image with just one eye.

    Similar thing I noticed with VR360-2D videos, watching them with both eyes feels all wrong, people are huge and everything looks off. Watching the same video with only one eye makes it look almost 3D, people have the right size and everything feels far more believable than with both eyes. Seems like removing the incorrect depth information from the second eye makes the brain switch over to another depth guessing algorithm that works much better.

    #206934

    In reply to: HP Reverb G2?

    Kazeon
    Participant

    @Ralf: Thanks for the encouragement!


    @moarveer
    : Thank you! I don’t plan to just buy it anytime soon tho, maybe early next year that is. Hopefully the price has already dropped a bit by that time.


    @Lawrence1962
    : Wow that’s a lot of information in one post! Thank you so much! I’d like to run my games at full resolution as well. What FPS is your PC able to run at tho? Have you experienced any nausea caused by low FPS? I’m a kind of person who simply go all-in for visual quality even if it costs good frame rate. I’m totally fine with low FPS (~40-ish) on flat screen since motion blur or v-sync usually helps a lot. But I wonder how it will affect my brain in VR. Have you ever experimented on this?

    I didn’t expect to get quick replies here. I’m so glad the community seems to be pretty active!

    #206804

    In reply to: RDR2 + Vorpx = Amazing

    Zel1984
    Participant

    You are very welcome, I recently done the mission where Arthur & Lenny get drunk at the saloon in Valentine, it is very cool & trippy in VR with the room going all bendy & warped as you get drunk, i walked in on Lenny getting it on with female Lenny, escaped the law & am now taking a slow walk back to Valentine where my horse Midknight is.

    In the flat version of the game i would have just run there as fast as possible but in VR it is so immersive that sometimes i just can’t help but take a slow walk through the world.

    The next part of this post contained inside the —‘s is my attempt to describe how even a simple slow walk to Valentine is in VR to try to help people get a sense of what it is like:

    I’m walking down a dirt road surrounded by forest, birds crowing in my right ear, chirping in my left, the buzz of some flying insect buzzing around my head, crunching footsteps, a steam train chugging along somewhere in the distance & the low music track playing behind it all,

    a couple of buffalo & deer running over the hills up ahead, horses coming down the road, guy being taken to jail in a caged wagon by two lawmen, “stay back from the wagon sir, we’re transporting a fugitive” one of them says as they ride on by, i let them be as i’m enjoying my walk,

    i notice the bright coloured plants scattered here & there, reds, purples, yellows, whites, i hear a weird moaning sound to my right, i turn & see an American bison up the hill a bit, i get out the binoculars for a better view, lots of muscle on that (animals are much bigger in VR, sense of scale is great), guy rides right in front of my view & says something about me not being right in the head, i give him a polite greeting & compliment him on his nice looking horse, he goes on his way, i continue walking,

    i scare a bird out of the long grass just to my left which makes me jump as it takes flight, no music now just the buzzing of insects, the chirping of birds & the crunching of footsteps, i see smoke to the right in the distance, not going there, spot a group of 5 deer having a munch not too far away, 1 of the deer looks me right in the binoculars as i am looking at them with eyes that seem to say ‘what you looking at?’, i continue on-wards,
    two guys on horses, one pulls out a rifle & says something as they go by, i resist the urge to shoot him in the face & continue, i come to a crossroad with a wooden sign, i follow the arrow pointing to Valentine, i see a lonely dead looking tree a little past the crossroad, spooky looking,

    i spot a berry bush, what could they be, red raspberry, yummy, pick a couple of nearby yarrow too then continue, train track just to the left of the road, rocky hills in the distance, open grassland with some rocky hills to the right, couple of deer watching me for any sign that i’m a threat, they turn & slowly amble away, snowy covered mountains coming into view, path splits with a wooden sign pointing toward Valentine, i obey the sign,

    path crosses over the train tracks, man rides by moaning about something, wagon rides by, two guys out front & two guys inside, a beautiful white & a black horse doing the work of pulling them, more traffic now, getting closer to Valentine,

    spot a crow on a rock, use binoculars for a good view, cool colour, mix of black & blue, flies off, path crosses back over the tracks, can clearly see Valentine now, hear an owl, check my platinum pocket watch, 16:05, guy on horse says”a whole lotta ugly business here” as he rides past some blood & human body parts,

    the blood trail leads down a little slope past a tree to where there is part of a human corpse suspended from beneath the rail bridge, writing on the rocks near the corpse reads “Look on my works”, there is a human head stuck to a wooden pillar of the rail bridge by knife with something in its mouth, i take it out, the head falls to the ground, part of a map, i go back up the slope & continue toward Valentine,

    i cross the tracks into Valentine, i can hear a telephone ringing coming from inside the train station, can almost smell the sheep, 2 guys having a smoke say hello as i walk by,
    guy leaning against a post says “that queasy feeling you been having is cause there is so many O’Driscols about”, think i’m gonna punch this guy, “i’ve only gotta click my fingers & this town will string you up & call it justice” he says, he walks towards me saying “you want me to set you straight”, he pushes me, i say “look at you, a coward trying to play it tough,” “make yourself scarce” he says, i punch him in the face, knock him down, he gets up “damn it to hell” he whinges as he pushes me again, we trade several blows, i see his face getting bloodier up as i connect with punch after punch, i knock him down, he gets up, he knocks me down, i get up, we continue beating on each other, i land a left hook that knocks him out cold,

    getting darker now, i check the time, 20:35, sound of a steam train whistle blowing, a couple of horses hitched & people standing, sitting, walking, chatting as i walk by houses that are lit up with flickering light from their various sources, Keane’s saloon door is open, tempting me to go in for a drink but no! i must be reunited with my Midknight (word of warning, you can become attached to your horse in VR, they are just so fn cool looking),
    i turn onto the main street, the newspaper boy still trying to sell his paper at this time, the sheriff standing having a smoke in front of his office, i look further down the road & there she is, my Midknight, i sprint towards her as people come out of the saloon & others try to enter which ends up making one poor fella fall down the stairs & get covered in mud, “damn” he says as he gets up, a drunk guy gets on his horse as he says the place is full of cheats which his mate on another horse agrees with as they ride away, i watch the guy who fell down the stairs walk away & round the corner at the end of the street, walking as if he had defecated in his drawers,

    i turn around, & look at my magnificent Midknight, about 2-3 heads higher than me, big beautiful beast, i pat her then go into the saloon for a drink to celebrate, lots of people in here, piano music playing a nice happy fast tune, barman talks about some lowlifes & about someone being pushed, maybe the guy that fell down the stairs, i order a beer & have a swig while looking at the pictures behind the bar,

    i finish my beer then head outside & jump on Midknight & hitch her just over the road at the hotel as i need a bath & a room for some sleep, guy behind the desk remembers me from when i saved Karen, doesn’t want trouble, i pay for a bath, walking down the hall to the bath i hear some guy moaning, must be that guy who i walked in on sitting on the toilet when i was here before, poor guys pipes must be clogged,

    got some help with my bath from a nice woman, told her i used to share baths with my dog copper, feeling nice & clean, i pay for a room, next door to the guy with the clogged pipes, & i get some sleep.

    I’m not a great story teller by any stretch of the imagination but i hope i have managed to give a sense of just how immersive even something as simple as a slow walk back to Valentine can be in VR.

    Info about what i’m using to play it: AMD Ryzen 3600 & RX 5700 XT using Oculus Rift S, my graphics settings i put to the highest resolution i can go to which is 1920 x 1080 & put the resolution scale as high as i could go without losing too much fps, TAA on high & TAA sharpness really high on the slide bar, for other settings i just put the main setting on ultra then lowered them one by one till i found my optimal performance + graphics.

    sikjar
    Participant

    I know that ETS2 has beta support for VR, but the game has basically no antialiasing, so it looks horrible.
    Some modders over at the Roextended forum have found a solution by using Nvidia Profile Inspector (NPI) to apply antialiasing to the game ( https://roextended.ro/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1000 )
    This works fine in 2D, but not for the VR version of ETS2.
    I’ve been tring to use VorpX to get this antialiasing fix to work in VR, and it almost works now.
    I am using a custom cloud profile for non-VR ETS2. It displays OK in VR when I don’t use the special NPI settings for antialiasing. When I use NPI to set 4xAA, the image quality is great, but only the top quarter of the game screen is shown in the vr screen, as if the image is zoomed in. When I set 2xAA the VR screen is not zoomed in so much, it shows about half of the game screen.
    I am wondering if the problem can be solved by editing the VorpX profile, but I have no experiance in doing that.
    Does anybody have any advice on how to scale down the resolution of the VR image, so that I can use 4xAA and still see the whole image in VorpX?

    Rikster618
    Participant

    Hello Ralf,

    I am at my wit’s end. I have tried everything but still can not get SoundSpectrum’s Aeon 3D Music Visualizer to successfully hook to my VorpX v21.3.01.0 with my Quest 2 via Airlink and give me ANY true 3D Stereo Geometry Effects in VR. The screen always looks flat whether in True 3D Mode, Immersive mode, or Cinema Mode. It also does not matter What 3D Reconstruction Mode I choose (Geometry, Z-Adaptive, Z-Normal, or Off) They all look flat. Everything seems to work Aeon and VorpX except the 3D Stereo Effect.

    Aeon is a truly great VJ Music Visualizer Software and would be truly mind-blowing in 3d Stereo VR with VorpX if I could get it to work.

    It is disappointing in that Baktus and others from the VorpX Forum seem to imply that it works:

    From Baktus Dec 12, 2018 –

    Soundspectrum Aeon has 3 d grafic engine and works with ue3 profile. Max Fov and 3d deep and enjoy your music with Aeon vr!
    Good: awesome, blown away hear my music this waybad: need Platinium version for 30 bucks, and g3d grafics could be still a bit deeper

    I did all of that but still no luck for me, All flat. I hope they are not mistaken.

    Ralf, please if you could confirm that Aeon can indeed fully work with your wonderful VorpX and let me know what I am missing I would be forever in your debt. It has been a dream of mine to get Soundblaster’s Aeon fully working in VR. Maybe you can do your magic and we end up with a new Profile.

    Here is something from an About just in case it is helpful:

    SoundSpectrum maintains a Python-based 3D drawing API for both public and internal use. The purpose of this API is to offer rich content authoring capabilities by exposing SoundSpectrum’s high-performance C++ based graphics engine to an embedded python interpreter. SoundSpectrum develops and maintains each of these layers and currently targets OpenGL, OpenGLES1, OpenGLES2, and Direct3D on Windows, OS X, and iOS.

    If this helps there is a trial version available here that could maybe used for testing: https://www.soundspectrum.com/aeon/download.html

    Ralf, if it only works with the paid version, which Baktus seems to imply, I would gladly cover the $30 cost.

    Here is hoping you can help me fix this.

    Thanks in advance!

    Rik Henderson (Rikster618)
    Email: rikster618@gmail.com
    My Direct Phone 1-818-620-2879

    My SoundSpectrum Log.txt:
    ———————
    GetSystemInfo(), 15-OCT-2021, 13:02:49 (UTC-7):
    Aeon 4.1.1 (8309), STANDALONE
    OS:Win62x64 CP0:Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-9900K CPU @ 3.60GHz Video0:NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Video1:NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Video2:NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Video3:NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti HT_Supported:0 NumVirtualCores:16 NumEffectiveCores:16
    CPU performance class: 3
    GPU performance class: 2
    hash=kO1RVILWWlE-6tKkCzaVI4OMTA586QA15Ke8NhnpRkpK-8zzRCYf2u-fZRZfot79Hn0jVduxjye5ENuXmCzdXh
    Direct3D
    DeviceType: 0x1
    Caps: 0x20000
    Caps2: 0xE0020000
    Caps3: 0x3A0
    CursorCaps: 0x1
    DevCaps: 0x1BBEF0
    DevCaps2: 0x51
    RasterCaps: 0x7732191
    ZCmpCaps: 0xFF
    AlphaCmpCaps: 0xFF
    ShadeCaps: 0x84208
    SrcBlendCaps: 0x3FFF
    DestBlendCaps: 0x3FFF
    LineCaps: 0x1F
    StencilCaps: 0x1FF
    TextureCaps: 0x1ECC5
    PresentationIntervals: 0x8000000F
    TextureFilterCaps: 0x3030700
    TextureOpCaps: 0x3FEFFFF
    VertexProcessingCaps: 0x17B
    PixelShaderVersion: 0xFFFF0300
    VertexShaderVersion: 0xFFFE0300
    PrimitiveMiscCaps: 0x2FCEF2
    PrimitiveMiscCaps: 0x2FCEF2
    MaxVolumeExtent: 2048
    MaxTexBlendStages: 8
    MaxSimultTextures: 8
    MaxStreams: 16
    MaxStreamStride: 255
    MaxPrimitiveCount: 16777215
    MaxVertexIndex: 16777215
    AvailableTextureMem: 3916M

    SSRendererFlags: 0x1F00B84
    Max tex size: 16384 x 16384 x 2048
    Max tex units: 8
    Audio:
    0: Class 5, ‘Sound Generator (Fluid)’
    1: Class 5, ‘Sound Generator (High Energy)’
    2: Class 5, ‘Sound Generator (Chill)’
    3: Class 0, ‘”What U Hear” (Sound Blaster Audigy 5/Rx)’
    4: Class 2, ‘Microphone (Sound Blaster Audigy 5/Rx)’
    5: Class 2, ‘Headset Microphone (Oculus Virtual Audio Device)’
    6: Class 2, ‘MIDI (Virtual Desktop Audio)’
    7: Class 1, ‘Line-In (Sound Blaster Audigy 5/Rx)’
    8: Class 1, ‘Stereo Out (SoundSpectrum Audio Cable)’
    9: Class 0, ‘Stereo Mix (Realtek High Definition Audio)’
    10: Class 2, ‘Microphone (HD Web Camera)’
    ———————

    #206711
    RJK_
    Participant

    Neverwinter Nights 1 (G3D)

    Old User Profile Thread


    Little Update on the original of the game. Several fixes. Better Text and HUD reading. IMPORTANT: Disable HD Text and visual HD effects !

    Using the new sharpening method makes the old graphics look real nice and crisp.

    – optimized for cinema modes
    – profile available at the cloud

    mr_spongeworthy
    Participant

    After a relatively long hiatus and a long series of hardware and software updates I have a VR rig that’s working extremely well.

    However, at some point a problem crept-in with vorpX that I’ve yet to solve:

    Fast and Alt Fast Sync used to work just fine to my Pimax 5K+ for me on my older rig, but on this one neither of those methods is working reliably. I’m getting flickering scenes, lack of sync, different frames in each eye, and that kind of thing. And while it’s somewhat related to overall GPU usage, it’s not any kind of a direct correlation (see below).

    Important rig details: Ryzen 5900X and RTX 3080 Ti, 32GB ram. I’m on PiTool v.1.0.1.272_20210917, which I believe is a release-version (non-beta; or at least as non-beta as anything out of Pimax is!) Video drivers are up-to-date (and this issue has survived several updates thus far.)

    I have excellent performance in native VR titles and things run nice and cool. I can push the GPU to nearly 100% all the time and it generally won’t even hit 80 degrees c. CPU likewise stays nice a cool (of course, it’s often sitting there not doing a whole lot in GPU heavy games anyway.) For example Alyx runs at 200+ Steam SS in Wide FOV totally without issue and often sees GPU usage clear up at 95+%. Cyberpunk (on my 3D display) will again run at 95%+ for hours. So I’m convinced this is a software issue, possibly an incompatibility between vorpX and my PiTool version? I’ve also tried manually under-clocking my GPU, just in case. Made no difference (beyond reducing my performance.)

    More info: This issue *does* depend on the title: I’m having zero issues with Greedfall for example – I have it running at 72hz in virtual cinema mode with no motion smoothing. GPU is often pegged way up above 90% in this title, and everything remains perfect. In FO3 however, I’ve had to switch to “Safe” sync mode. Same for Cyberpunk. The problem worsens with either kind of motion-smoothing (vorpX or Brainwarp) enabled, but is not completely related to motion smoothing. It’s also somewhat related to total GPU usage, but it’s again not completely related to total GPU usage (see Greedfall example above). Both Fallout 3 and Cyberpunk are good examples of titles where I’m seeing this behavior, and I’m having to leave a huge amount of GPU power on-the-table now to get these games to display properly as I’ve now got both of them in Safe sync mode. In Fallout 3 I was pushing 4K, G3D, 45fps/90Hz using vorpX motion smoothing, on my 2080 Super with no issues. Now, on my 3080 Ti those exact same settings result in sync-glitches. (I currently have it running safe Sync mode, 64Hz, no motion smoothing). In Cyberpunk I’m having to leave tremendous GPU overhead in order to maintain a properly synced experience, since Safe mode causes the FPS in the game itself to drop considerably and either of the faster HMD sync modes causes significant sync issues. I can push the GPU usage a bit higher with motion-smoothing off before this issue presents itself. For example, in Cyberpunk, Fast or Alt Fast sync mode, motion smoothing ON, I might start to see this clear down around 50% or 60% usage. With motion smoothing OFF and still in Fast or Alt Fast sync mode I might be able to push as high as 70% GPU usage before I start to have problems. In Safe sync mode all is good but of course my overall frame-rate suffers greatly. I haven’t tested Fallout 4 yet (I have the VR version now, so I’m not really using vorpX for F04 at this point.) I’ve picked-up Life is Strange True Colors recently, so I’ll test that soon.

    Sorry for the incredibly long post, but it’s a weird issue and varies considerably title-to-title.

    Is there a specific PiTool version I should be trying to use? Any other info on how I might try to get Fast or Alt Fast sync modes to work correctly again?

    Thank you!

    #206522
    dellrifter22
    Participant

    Glad i got a chance to check this out tonight, before I’m out of town for a week. Thanks.

    Initial impressions are that it looks pretty good (much clearer than previous vorpX defaults) although noticeably softer than I’m used to at max sharpen. 2.0 on this filter seems about as strong as 1.0 of the old. I think the new combination has a more natural “smooth” look, perhaps more stable and more accurate, but I may still prefer the old method with Sharpen 2.0 and Crystal image Normal.

    The old filter seems to have a higher contrast defining edges, adding more black to contour lines and textures, in turn making the overall scene look slightly more complex. It’s subtle effect, but adds just enough to better discern objects in the distance, like individual trees and their leaves, and makes terrain textures look slightly more detailed – even if artificially. Text lines are also better defined. I’m using Assassin’s Creed Origins/Odyssey as test cases for high res Z3D 3200×2880.

    At least these are my observations off the bat. I know it’s subjective, and most will prefer a more accurate image, free of artifacts, but just thought I’d mention this opinion in case there were some way to extend the range of the new sharpen, or include the old filters as alternatives.

    Anyhow, I look forward to playing more with this when I return. Thanks.

    #206425
    RJK_
    Participant

    I am currently playing Fallout 3 with VorpX. Even after the awsome FO4 experience i must say this game (2008!!!) looks so incredibly nice with vorpx, especially with the Fellout mod which removes the greenish lighting in favor of crisp colours and a blue sky. These ini settings my be helpful on random crashes. These settings will also improve FPS and minimize studder. Dont go too high in resolution though which may result in crashes or freezes. I found a resolution of 3600×3700 (Gtx108ti) working well. Push the VorpX sharpness slider all the way up to 2 makes the image look very clear. In my eyes no need for texture mods etc.

    The Game (Game of the Year) with 5 add ons is currently 86% off Here

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